In this episode, Olivia from Govlaunch sits down with Toronto's Fire Chief Matthew Pegg, who has been tasked with leading the City's COVID-19 response as incident commander.
When in crisis mode, structure and chain of command is paramount. However, innovation is not just nice to have in these moments...It's a necessity. Toronto's Fire Chief Matthew Pegg shares some leadership advice and tips for maintaining calm and driving innovation in times of crisis.
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Featured government: Toronto, ON Canada
Episode guests: Matthew Pegg, Fire Chief, General Manager of Emergency Management, and COVID-19 Incident Commander
Visit govlaunch.com for more stories and examples of local government innovation.
Lindsay: (00:05)
Welcome to the Govlaunch podcast. Govlaunch is the Wiki for local government innovation and on this podcast, we're sharing the stories of local government innovators and their efforts to build smarter governments. I'm Lindsay Pica-Alfano, co-founder of Govlaunch and your host. Today, Olivia sits down with Toronto's fire chief Matthew Pegg, who was tasked with leading the city's COVID-19 response as incident commander. When in crisis mode, structure and chain of command is paramount. However, innovation is not just nice to have in these moments. It's a necessity. As cities start to unpack lessons learned from their COVID-19 responses, there are some important innovation lessons that should be applied in the longer term. I'll turn now to Olivia to dive into this topic and learn more about innovation in times of crisis.
Olivia: (00:56)
Hi, I'm Olivia from Govlaunch, and I'm here with fire chief and general manager of emergency management, Matthew Pegg from Toronto, Canada. Chief Pegg, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Matthew: (01:07)
Well, Olivia, very nice to talk to you again. I am in fact, the fire chief and general manager of emergency management here in the city of Toronto. And I've been in that role since 2016. And most recently, since I would say the, the escalation of the COVID-19 pandemic, I've also been serving as the incident commander for COVID-19 response operations since March of 2020. I come from four different municipalities actually. So a little bit atypical in terms of experience, in terms of what is, I would say the norm within emergency services here in Canada, anyhow, most of our people will, will start and finish their careers in the same jurisdiction or the same city. Toronto is my fourth stop by previously served in various capacities, across three other municipalities as well. So very pleased to be with you here today. I'm excited to talk about any number of things and Olivia, I know you well, and I know that you're likely going to take us in all kinds of directions. So let's go
Olivia: (02:06)
Absolutely as a, to your point as the incident commander for Toronto's COVID-19 task force, a task force that I'm quite familiar with. I have worked with chief Pegg in the past. We've had a lot of fun. Um, I want to unpack a little bit more about that specifically since of course the nature of the COVID-19 response, especially in the beginning, you were needing to make some pretty quick decisions with constantly changing information. What was that like?
Matthew: (02:31)
Well, quite candidly, managing the response to COVID-19 and operating what has now become our, our entire COVID-19 response system, if you will, without any doubt is, has been and continues to be the most daunting and certainly the longest lasting emergency response operation I've ever been involved in COVID-19 in my experience has also been the single most rapidly changing circumstance or situation that I've ever operated the incident command system in response to, um, you know, it's not uncommon when we're, when we're operating incident commander, incident management systems at large scale fires and other rescues, and those types of emergencies things change and they evolve very quickly. But there were periods of time for a very sustained amount of time where the information around COVID 19 and as certainly as the science was evolving, and we were transitioning from planning into the implementation of public health measures and then beginning to prepare for the eventual launch and rollout of, of immunization and vaccines.
Matthew: (03:36)
Those things were changing sometimes hour to hour and even more frequently than that. So it has been a real challenge, the actual incident command system here that the COVID-19 incident command system in the city of Toronto is the largest and most complex incident management system in our history. And we actually have reason to believe that it is one of the largest and most complex IMS systems that's ever happened in Canadian history as well. So it has been quite an experience it's been tough without any doubt, but I have been given an incredible opportunity to watch the public service come together and innovate and pull together for the purposes of saving lives and for the purposes of beating a pandemic. And I feel very blessed and very fortunate to have been given that, that front row seat, if you will,
Olivia: (04:26)
Lots of stuff that you were leading and lots of constantly changing information, as you mentioned for some of our audience that aren't as familiar with incident management systems, could you talk to us a little bit more about what that looks like in practice and what some of the key principles are for good, um, incident management?
Matthew: (04:46)
Of course, I refer to an incident command system or incident management system. We tend to use those terms somewhat interchangeably. It is a methodology and a set of processes that are very commonplace for us in the emergency response world. And a lot of people have found it fascinating actually as Toronto's response to COVID-19 has evolved. And as I've continued to have these conversations across a number of media platforms that the incident management system that we designed and built and created and operated in response to COVID-19 is exactly the same methodology that happens on our roads and our streets, hundreds of times, every day at the hands of our command officers in Toronto fire services. So it is really, it is a command and control methodology that is designed to establish and maintain effective spans of control and, um, facilitate the completion of the overarching top, uh, strategic priority.
Matthew: (05:45)
So let me, let me explain when we set up, uh, when I was appointed as the incident commander for COVID-19 back in March of 2020, the very first thing that happened is we established our overarching strategy that would govern and continue to govern our response to COVID. Those were first and foremost, number one, to save lives and prevent the spread of the virus that was priority. Number one, priority, number two, to protect our health care system and prevent it from becoming overwhelmed and number three, to protect what I would refer to as our social and our financial economies, such that we're doing everything we can do to protect livelihoods and businesses and, uh, protect the economy, such that there is actually an economy to restart. Those three principles have guided every single decision that we make. And then the incident management system is this a hierarchy in this org chart and all of these management systems and processes that are built, all, everything in support of the achievement of those goals.
Olivia: (06:48)
So it's really interesting how you mentioned command and control, and obviously being very familiar with the size of processes, being the head of fire services in Toronto. What I thought was really interesting about the incident management system is although there was a chain of command and there's a hierarchy and it was really great that everyone rallied around three clear goals that everyone was working towards. There is still a lot of space for out of the box thinking and creative solutions to some of the constantly changing information. What was that like from an innovation perspective within the actual incident management system?
Matthew: (07:22)
You know, I think if I had to put a single description around it, I would say that it was nothing less than intense, but extremely rewarding. And, you know, Olivia we watched, and I know you were, you were here to see most of it hands-on in, in the majority of the first wave, we, we were able to build systems and put in essence, put the right people in the right places with the right, the right empowerment, the right tools, if you will, to actually get the job done and literally watched and facilitated innovation after innovation, after innovation. And that ranged anywhere from creating things like the immunization task force and then ultimately creating the very first mass immunization clinic for COVID-19 creating that playbook that ultimately would be handed off to the province of Ontario. So we actually wrote the play road and evaluated and tested the playbook for the province of Ontario.
Matthew: (08:17)
So looking at something as tangible as that, all the way to watching every single operating department in the city pivot and transition their operations when we had no choice, but to move from in-person work to remote work and in what we refer to as war time speed, that's a term that Mayor Tory coined very early on. They at the, at this pace of wartime speed, which was candidly rather uncommon in the government sector in sir, I watched all of my peers and I enjoyed being a part of transitioning all of those services. So that city services didn't actually shut off and where they did it wasn't for very long, it was really about a short-term pause while things were retooled and while service delivery models were rebuilt so that a city services could continue in an uninterrupted basis, uh, with a whole different engine or machine happening behind the scenes.
Matthew: (09:13)
So, pretty cool to watch the result of course, of all of that work. And certainly all of the COVID response and immunization and vaccine task force work, literally thousands of lives have been saved to date. And we are now in the process of what, we're, what we call demobilization and recovery, where we're leading this series of series of items and a scope of work that is aimed at immobilizing. Some of the things that we put in place and continuing to return our city to normal operations, as of course, the rate of vaccine increases in the rate of COVID transmission drops. So lots of work on the go, but, uh, it's been pretty exciting, long, intense, difficult, very stressful, but equally, certainly one of the most rewarding things I've ever been involved in
Olivia: (10:00)
Really impressive, and certainly Herculean efforts that yourself and the team have put in constantly around responding to COVID-19 and something that I find particularly interesting. And I think is at the heart of a lot of the reflections that you just shared as you were one of the few coming specifically from a crisis, as well as a command and control environment through your role leading the city's fire services, you came into the COVID-19 task force leading it, and you were alongside a lot of public servants that had typically been focused more on policy and strategy. So you mentioned wartime speed and how things had to move really quickly, but how, even though the COVID 19 response was very complex and there's lots of changing information, you actually were applying the same methodologies that you'd applied your entire career. So with this in mind, how was that experience sort of bridging the gap between the more policy and strategic focused folks and the operations minded folks, and how did that work in practice and how did those two worlds kind of come together?
Matthew: (11:04)
Well, I think you've summed it up, uh, extremely relevant. It, we did pull together people from, uh, one of the most arguably the most diverse sets of experience and backgrounds that you ever could have assembled from. And it started from, again, following the incident management methodology. And, and let me, let me just, I'll take a little detour here. So when I was asked by the city manager to take on the COVID-19 incident command role, that is as a result of the experience that I was able to bring in responding to emergency incidents. And in essence, implementing the incident command and incident management processes in a, in a successful manner in, from, from the standpoint of being familiar with the processes and tools and having the experience of, if you will walking into often chaotic, very complicated situations, bringing order to that chaos, protecting public safety, and then, um, working to achieve a state of restoration.
Matthew: (12:05)
So this role, although I never imagined, I know I never would have imagined that over the course of my career, that I would ever be working at all, let alone for nearly two years in leading what is a public health response. But I think one of the things that has been fascinating to me and has really emerged for us globally is that the skills that exist within a number of a number of, of divisions and agencies and sectors across the city. And, and I'll speak specifically about the fire service for a moment, the skills that exist from experienced emergency responders and experienced command officers within emergency services in our world, including fire police paramedics, and the officer routine management, those skills were immediately transferrable and immediately deployable if you will, into this response against, or, you know, response against, uh, or to lead the war against COVID-19.
Matthew: (13:02)
So that's why I was asked to do that with respect to bringing this diverse set of people together, we set up a series of command tables and a series of teams of people, if you will. And I apologize, it gets a little technical, but I think you'll find it interesting. So everything that happens within an incident management system or an incident command system happens, we define it in one of three ways, strategy, tactics, and task. And that means that at any given point in time, all three of those functions are happening. They are happening concurrently, but there are people who are intentionally focused on their respective level. So my role as the incident commander and in leading what we referred to as our COVID-19 strategic command team, my job was to keep the strategic command team focused on strategic level issues. There were people within the org structure within the incident management structure who were focused on the tactical level decisions, which were things like some of the more, a little bit more granular, a little bit more boots on the ground, if you will.
Matthew: (14:06)
So how we're going to get certain things done, how we're going to coordinate the timing, all of those logistics. And then of course, the task level work, which was at its very core was actually delivering the service. So 24 hours a day, seven days a week, there were teams of people working on each of strategy, tactics and task. When we were able to build those teams and assemble them, like you said, with this very diverse set of skills around the table, and a very diverse group of people by implementing that system and explaining to everyone what their respective role was and what, how important it was that they stay at their, at their assigned level, it United everyone into, into a common sense of purpose. And in eliminated what otherwise have been the natural tendency for people to default to their individual subject matter expertise. So that's a principle, a fundamental principle of incident command and incident management, the same methodology that we use it, like I said before, hundreds of times a day on the streets of Toronto, more than, you know, multiple hundred times every day like today, our crews on the street will implement the very same incident management system that we built. Very same methodology. Of course COVID has been exponentially larger and more complex, but same tools, strategy, tactics, and tasks, all driving the completion of those top level strategic priorities.
Olivia: (15:30)
There's a lot that we can learn from these emergency management principles. And just thinking about even the day-to-day of running a city. When we think about the public service, there's often natural silos that will form between the operations front line folks and the head office folks working mostly on things like policy, for example. And it's really interesting that you were able to bring all of these different people together and break some of that down. So everyone could work together at the different levels that you mentioned, strategic tactical, as well as tasks. So learning from the many successes of the COVID-19 response, where both worlds were forced to collide, what are some of the lessons you think cities can apply more generally in their day to day?
Matthew: (16:08)
Great question. I think Olivia that the number one opportunity that our city has and that every city around the world has, um, as a result of COVID and as a result of the lessons learned in COVID, I think it is, we have the opportunity right now to continue to operate in this mindset of what I would describe, which I, I shamelessly steal from my wife, Catherine, I will look at it, um, to be the architects of how and the being the architect of how is a concept that I have introduced in all of my roles, in something that very early on, I brought to the team in our strategic command team, and then all of our, all of our supporting strategic teams in response to COVID and really what being the architect of how means is empowering people. And at the same time asking them to eliminate this notion.
Matthew: (17:04)
So the only thing that we, we won't tolerate, or that we won't, we won't accept on its face is that we can't do something. So being an architect of how means we are the group of people that problems come to, and we are the people that will create a solution to those problems. Sometimes that can be a daunting long-term task. Sometimes they're relatively simple, but I think that we really have cities really have an opportunity right now to embed this notion of being the architects of how into, into the very cultural fabric that makes up the public service. Other things that strike me, lessons learned for me and things that worked very well, being nearly ruthless in running effective efficient meetings. And I know, you know, this cause you were, you were part of it, but one of the things that has somewhat become our trademark in run in the way that we have managed COVID-19 has been to run and operate meetings hyper efficiently.
Matthew: (18:06)
And that means very clear objectives, very clear control or coordination of the meeting. If you will driving for clarity, driving for common understanding and being intolerant of any sense of wasting time. Like I said before, the COVID managing the response to COVID-19 is the single most daunting thing I've ever been involved in. And the hours, you know, we were working well more than 18 hours a day. I didn't have five minutes to waste on a particular meeting and neither did our team. So driving aggressively managing meetings and getting people to understand that being efficient in a meeting and being intolerant of distractions or, um, you know, squirrel chasing, if you will being intolerant of those things, isn't disrespectful and it's not by no means is it intended to be, you know, overbearing, it's all about respecting time. And if, if we can run, if we can shave five minutes or seven minutes or 10 minutes off a meeting and give those 10 minutes back to the people that are in those high stress, high pressure decision-making and tactical and task level roles that can make all the difference in the world.
Matthew: (19:17)
So those are two examples. I just think that we, you know, when I think about it, the response to COVID-19 here and I'm sure around the world has really proved to me that cities truly have the ability to operate at, at a previously unheard of pace, and really have the ability to achieve uncommon results. I watched our, our recreation division completely transformed the way that they delivered services. We watched paramedic services and police services and fire services pivot to this entirely new set of circumstances that were on the street. We watched Toronto water having to completely adjust the way that they, the way in which they ensured safe, you know, a safe uninterrupted supply of clean drinking water across the city, and while still meeting all of the COVID precautions. So there's just so many great examples of the fact that we can do this. We can be really effective in doing it. I don't think anybody's better positioned to deliver those kind of responsive, exciting transformational results than at the city and municipal level.
Olivia: (20:26)
Absolutely cities we're very much involved in every single aspect of the COVID-19 response. And since they are the ones the most closely linked to important and vital services in a community has really sound advice. Thank you for sharing that, thinking about leadership style. Now that also has a huge impact on whether or not teams have the ability to innovate. And I think you're in a really unique position, chief Pegg, just being the head of both this COVID-19 task force, but also, uh, being the head of fire services and emergency management more broadly. How do you create the space for experimentation the workplace, which I know you do while still maintaining that importance of the command and control element that is so integral to successfully responding to incidents. How do you manage that balance?
Matthew: (21:13)
Great question. If I told you yet that these questions are harder than most interview questions well done. I think, I think first and foremost, it's about being committed to, to not just in words, but being committed indeed, to creating a culture that embraces the principle of continuous improvement. And I'll give you a couple of examples of what that means to me. The first is when you are operating in a culture and environment where continuous quality improvement is at your core, my sense is in my experiences, the team will be comfortable pushing the limits on what is possible. In other words, it's okay to push the limits and fail and what we have been able to achieve. And what I would encourage anyone is one of our deputy chiefs here. Tony [inaudible] taught me a line, uh, taught me this. He, he, he packages together, which I think is fascinating and he calls being committed to failing fast.
Matthew: (22:10)
And that has been critical for us in response to COVID-19. We don't have a lot of time to work things out. We needed to innovate. We needed to move to solution, and we needed to move on things and be willing to have, um, mistakes happen, but we needed that to happen quickly. So I would say committing to fail fast and likewise, somewhat synonymously with that, but, um, embracing this principle of failing to action all too often in, you know, in my 29 years in the municipal, in the city sector, there's so many examples of really this paralysis by analysis where nothing tangible happens because we end up in this perpetual self-fulfilling cycle of just over-analyzing and, you know, an overly aggressive commitment to risk management or being afraid of failure, where really the innovation happens when we fail to action or being, being comfortable and making the choice, I would rather move to action and, you know, be unsuccessful than do nothing.
Matthew: (23:15)
So, uh, those are principles that we embraced from the start. Of course there are hard-stop rules in effect, anything that, anything that dealt with public safety, of course there's a no fail principle, right? So anything that relied on or, or was deemed, or was coming from things like public health or medical direction, those are removable. They're not variable, but when it came to implementing innovative transformational solutions on the ground, like how are we going to deliver recreation services to a city of more than 3 million people? When we have public health orders that close the facilities, being willing to push the envelope and transition to online systems and online engagements and, you know, facilitating a health and fitness and wellness programs via some of the traditional means like online, those are things where we're going, we're going to push to fail. Did everything work perfectly the first time?
Matthew: (24:09)
Of course not, but that continuous, uh, a culture of continuous quality improvement means that we're okay if it's not perfect the first time, because our commitment will be to take all of the good results and crystallize those and then continue to work on the process so that it, it really becomes this never-ending journey. Last thing I'll say to that is I think the last commitment, which may actually be the most important is being committing to be hard on the issues and not hard on the people. So not certainly not leveraging, not jumping down the throats of, you know, in any way, shape or form, when things go wrong, we get hard on the issue. We get hard on the problem and drive for resolve, but doing so in a respectful, supportive manner that respects that, um, you know, people are people and we all have needs, and we're all very stressed and very tired. So hard on the issue, not on the people
Olivia: (25:05)
Really sound advice, especially that piece around deleting what delineating what is variable versus not variable. I think that that's such a great starting point for conversations with the team on innovation and experimentation, as well as of course, supporting people, making sure that that's at the center of everything that you do. So your passion, chief Pegg for supporting your community and embedding an innovative culture that busts silos is very evident beyond the wise words you've shared already. Is there any advice you would share to local government practitioners looking to embed more agile thinking and innovation on their feet, across many complex functions?
Matthew: (25:41)
I think that the advice I would give would be, uh, which may seem overly simple, but would be really to commit to putting the right people in the right roles. And that, and I'll talk just a little bit Olivia, but what I mean by setting them up to succeed. One of the things that has become, um, impeccably clear for me over the course of my career, responding to emergencies, and most recently that no matter who and who someone is, no matter what the circumstance is, no matter what position they occupy on on a corporate org charter in a hierarchy in order to succeed, everyone needs three things. They need the accountability, they need the authority and they need the responsibility. And if you lack any of those three things, you actually can't, you're not sufficiently empowered to deliver the result. So oftentimes there's many, you know, I've seen many circumstances where we will try and hold someone accountable for delivering something, but we don't to necessarily give them the responsibility for getting it done or the authority to get it done.
Matthew: (26:49)
And that is simply a recipe for failure, what I experienced and, you know, with my great sincere, thanks to Chris Murray, our city manager and Mayor Tory and all of Toronto city council, when I was installed as the COVID-19 incident commander, I was immediately bestowed that, yes, the accountability I took on a very, very significant load. And I very clearly understood that I ultimately will be held accountable for the outcomes of managing the COVID-19 incident management system in our response to COVID. But I was also given immediately the authority to do what I needed to do and the responsibility for getting it done. And those are the three ingredients that lead to success. If I had lacked any of those, if they had given me the accountability and responsibility, but not empowered me with the authority we would have become, had been the opposite of wartime speed.
Matthew: (27:42)
We would have been operating at glacial pace, having those three ingredients, the accountability, knowing I'm going to be held accountable, knowing I have the responsibility to get it done, but also have having the authority to lead and manage and make decisions enabled us to be nimble. And my advice to any organization is those are the three ingredients that every, certainly every leader and really every one of us that works in the public sector and beyond private sector as well. Those are the three things that tactical and strategic leaders and task level leaders need in order to deliver results, accountability, responsibility, and authority.
Olivia: (28:20)
Thank you for that. Shifting gears a little bit, we're always curious about the tools leaders use to support an innovative workplace. Can you share with me a gov tech product you use that you'd highly recommend and why
Matthew: (28:33)
I can certainly, uh, talk about, um, I'm not sure I could get it as granular as a single product, but we, of course, along with the rest of the world, when the public health measures necessary to control the spread of COVID-19 started to be implemented. And that was things like stay at home orders and lock downs and closures. We had to immediately and expeditiously pivot every aspect of our operation from raw, from physical to remote, and that included our entire emergency operation center. So like the vast majority of emergency operation centers, anywhere ours was based on a physical workplace, a physical space where people would come together, key leaders would come together and would use the space and the tools that were in that fixed location to drive the completion of the incident management process. We had to almost instantly transition to remote work and to virtual EOC into virtual sites.
Matthew: (29:29)
So I would say that I'm so impressed by how quickly and efficiently our city was able to make that pivot happen. Our technology service services division of course, had to almost immediately, um, exponentially expand the network bandwidth for remote work and remote log on and enabling all of those things. And just watching the transition where we were able to in very, very short order move from things that have been forever, not just traditionally, but have forever been based on people being together, physically present in a workspace and transition that into an efficient and effective means operated remotely. It was pretty impressive to watch that happen. And my hats off to every single person who was willing to be pushed out of their comfort zone when we made that transition and to all of the innovators, both from a technology standpoint and a people leadership standpoint, who, who facilitated that and make it happen, it was pretty awesome to see, and it has really transformed the way that our city operates today. And frankly, I don't think, I don't think we will ever go back to the way, if you will, or the state that we were operating the city pre pre-COVID 19 pandemic. I think our future will certainly be a hybrid of those two and we'll continue to evolve into an enabling technology.
Olivia: (30:49)
It's pretty remarkable how much of a lasting impact some of the innovations that came out of COVID-19 are going to have on how we operate as, as cities, um, and as local government practitioners, to your point, Jeff peg, lastly, what's something that excites you about the future of civic innovation in Toronto.
Matthew: (31:08)
I think I'm really what I'm most excited about is our ability to continue to make this, the present pace of operations and the, you know, this wartime speed, if you will. I'm really excited about the opportunity to embed that as our normal culture. And I'm really proud of the fact that as we have transitioned, you know, as the COVID-19 situation continues to stabilize and as we continue to reactivate and, and restart more and more and more segments of our economy and more and more and more in-person city services and those types of things, I'm watching this, you know, there isn't this natural or kind of predicted tendency to go back to the speed of government, if you will. So I'm excited about the fact, I think cities have an opportunity to make this kind of high speed focused, poised, you know, innovation, part of our core culture and part of who we are.
Matthew: (32:03)
And I think the other thing I would say is I really think I'm excited to see the aftermath and the output of the lessons learned with respect to the, just the criticality for leaders being effective communicators. And, you know, I have, it's been normal for me and certainly over the course of my career, I personally understand. And my belief is that every time I arrive on the scene of a large fire or whatever the circumstance is, when I step in front of the cameras and begin to update the media, I'm always doing that. My principle objective is to do everything I can do to talk to in our case, the more than 3 million people that live here and really say to them and give them a sense of calm, right. To say to them, you know, this is what we're dealing with, but we're here.
Matthew: (32:49)
We're going to look after this and everyone's going to be okay. That has become a very key and very core thing. And COVID is, you know, in our case, watching Dr. Davila, the city of Toronto is medical officer of health continually educate, update, provide factual timely information, but really to reassure people that, you know, yeah, this isn't easy. I, we have 100% agree, but we're going to be okay and we're here and it's going to be okay, same with mayor Tory on behalf of council. And really as the, the elected leader of the city of Toronto becoming that face and voice of calm. And that, that would certainly be my advice to, and has been my advice to any of my peers and to anyone listening to this podcast, I would say for those of us that have the privilege of being, being put in senior leadership positions, there really is. No, I don't think there's anything from a communication standpoint, more important than being committed to being an effective communicator, but also to effectively conveying a sense of calm during times of crisis and emergency people need that. And it's our responsibility to deliver it.
Olivia: (33:57)
What a great note to end on. And we're looking forward to seeing more cities, fostering innovation, and a culture of experimentation that absolutely embraces the unique knowledge of operational areas, such as far as services and beyond. Thank you for joining us today, Chief Pegg.
Matthew: (34:11)
My sincere pleasure, Olivia, thank you very much.
Lindsay: (34:19)
I'm Lindsay Pica-Alfano and this podcast was produced by Govlaunch, the Wiki for local government innovation. You can subscribe to hear more stories like this wherever you get your podcasts. If you're a local government innovator, we hope you'll help us on our mission to build the largest free resource for local governments globally. You can join to search and contribute to the wiki at govlaunch.com. Thanks for tuning in. We hope to see you next time on the Govlaunch podcast.