Today, I chat with Jessica Grondin from Portland, Maine, and Deb Hamilton from the Calgary Board of Education. Tim Booker from Civil Space joins us as well and together we'll learn what made these organizations choose Civil Space to deliver more citizen friendly tools for engagement and what you should know as well in your search for the appropriate vendor.
In this short series, we’re talking all about Citizen Engagement. I’ll be highlighting some of the innovators in local government leveraging available tools to better engage with the communities they serve.
Our goal is to expose more local governments to the tools available to help by efficiently providing useful information about some of the leading products out there. We’d love it if you could spend less time finding and researching products and hopefully get to launching your digital efforts to engage with your residents more quickly. Stay tuned for more episodes on innovators in local government across the globe. Read the Guide.
More info:
Featured government: Portland, Maine
Government Guest: Jessica Grondin, Director of communications and digital services
Featured government board: Calgary Board of Education
Government Guest: Deb Hamilton, Community engagement consultant
Featured Maker: Civil Space
Maker Guest: Tim Booker, CEO
Visit govlaunch.com for more stories and examples of local government innovation.
Lindsay: (00:05)
Welcome to the Govlaunch podcast. Govlaunch is the Wiki for local government innovation and on this podcast, we're sharing the stories of local government innovators and their efforts to build smarter governments. I'm Lindsay Pica-Alfano, co-founder of Govlaunch and your host. Today, I chat with Jessica Grondin from Portland, Maine, and Deb Hamilton from the Calgary Board of Education. Tim Booker from Civil Space joins us as well and together we'll learn what made these organizations choose Civil Space to deliver more citizen friendly tools for engagement and what you should know as well in your search for the appropriate vendor. Thank you all for joining me today. Can you quickly introduce yourselves and share a bit about your roles?
Jessica: (00:51)
Sure. I'm Jessica Grondin. I'm the director of communications and digital services in Portland, Maine, and I oversee all communication and marketing efforts, which includes media and public relations, civic engagement, and digital services tools that we use. Obviously our website, social media and our three one one program.
Deb: (01:11)
My name is Deb Hamilton and I'm a community engagement consultant with the Calgary board of education. Part of my role is leading the work to implement an online engagement tool, a system-wide and our system is 245 schools and a bunch of service units. Um, well, that's how I've come to know Tim and civil space.
Tim: (01:32)
Hi, I'm Tim from Civil Space. Uh, I'm the CEO there. So I spend most of my time ensuring that, uh, as a company both our products and the services that we offer, we're continuously evolving to help governments and other public service organizations like boards of education, uh, to do a better job at building partnerships with their communities.
Lindsay: (01:55)
Great. I want to begin with a little history on each of your organizations, uh, Jessica and Deb, and what your approach has been to community engagement prior to working with civil space. Jessica, I'll start with you.
Jessica: (02:08)
So prior to civil space, we were relying on our regular communication tools, press releases, newsletters, social media, the website, and of course in-person community meetings and public hearings during council and committee meetings. We'd have occasionally have some time to do surveys here and there, but it really varied heavily by department and resources. Um, in 2019, my colleague at the time we joined an innovation cohort, uh, with other local government leaders. And it was through those conversations that we realized our biggest issue was civic engagement because we felt like we weren't hearing from enough of our constituents. As you can imagine, you know, neighborhood meetings and public hearings tend to only work for specific groups. And so we've kind of felt like we were hearing from the same voices over and over again. And we were trying to think of ways that we could engage others in our community that we knew were there, but might not have the time to participate in their government.
Lindsay: (03:06)
And Deb, your use case is a little bit different from local government, but we wanted to bring you onto the podcast today to talk about how you're specifically using civil space. Cause I think it does a fantastic job to really compliment Portland's use and highlight some of the flexibility of the platform. Your work can be easily transferrable to municipal government, especially considering the various department silos they're working with and many of them scrambling to identify ways to engage with their communities. What has your approach been historically to community engagement and what made you seek out a tool like civil space?
Deb: (03:39)
In 2016, we developed what we call the dialogue framework and that is our framework for all community engagement activities across the system. We engage with stakeholders on system wide decisions like balancing the transportation budget or engaging with staff, students and families when a program or quadrant of the city is experiencing pressures due to higher or low enrollment. We also have individual school and service unit requirements for engagement. So while our engagement team, uh, owns engagement for the Calgary board of education, our system is actually quite distributed when it comes to engagement. And so as we we're looking at the ad hoc ways people were engaging online, we really thought that a single online engagement platform would make really good sense. Our stakeholders would have a consistent experience online. Um, it would be a cost-effective solution rather than everyone picking and choosing their own item. And it allows our small but mighty engagement team to more fully support our, um, leaders in their engagement activities.
Lindsay: (05:00)
Great. Well, I'm excited to have you both on the podcast, you're going to bring some interesting insights to this universal challenge that is trying to engage a community, whether that be a community of citizens or students, parents, and faculty. Community engagement is a very broad term. Can you each share more specifically what you're using civil space for in each of your organizations? Jessica, I'll start with you.
Jessica: (05:24)
Sure. So we have used it primarily in one department so far for one program, uh, for our community block development grant funding. That's our federal funding program and, um, there's funding that does get applied to various departments, but there's also certain, um, marketing components that group has to meet in terms of compliance with the federal program. So they really needed to be able to show away that they were reaching enough community members. And as you can imagine a program that complex isn't exactly an exciting neighborhood meeting or community meeting at night. So they were having a really hard time getting people to come to their meeting and they were embarking on their five-year strategic plan for how to use that money. And so they needed a way to reach more people, um, explain what that program meant on the local level and all the ways that the funding can help. So they were really interested in this platform. Um, we kind of brought them in as our first pilot, uh, group to try it out with. Um, and so far they saw a huge number of engagement, much bigger than what they've been able to reach people with a neighborhood meeting. So they were really excited about it. We're hoping to expand it to all of our departments, but of course COVID kind of messed things up for a little bit, but I think we're getting back on track very soon.
Lindsay: (06:47)
Before we jump to Deb, how long have you been engaged with Civil Space in this pilot?
Jessica: (06:52)
Sure. So we started at the end of 2019. The pilot went through about spring of 2020, of course that's when everything else changed as well. But in terms of extending it further city use, we had to put that on pause because of COVID. Um, but we're now planning for next year's budget. And signing back on for full use very soon.
Lindsay: (07:13)
Great. And Deb back to you on how you all are using civil space specifically.
Deb: (07:19)
We've been partnering with civil space for about 18 months now. The biggest engagement that we have initiated through a civil space from an online perspective is actually in fact, the biggest engagement in the history of the Calgary board of education. And that's balancing enrollment in 20 of our high schools across the system. We're using civil space to engage with our stakeholders, which does include staff, parents and students. In addition to the high school engagement work, we have some internal teams that have been using civil space. Our leadership and learning teams as a civil space to survey their participants, uh, when it comes to leadership and learning seminars that they host and our HR team is using civil space for exit surveys when employees leave the system. Another aspect, which is really interesting for us is the template system that civil space offers where we can create a template that our schools can then pull into their own account and customize for their own purposes. And we launched that last spring and we saw through our school budget and fees, engagement an increase of 1100% for schools and an increase of 10000% for parents within this engagement.
Lindsay: (08:53)
Wow. And Tim, can you break down for our listeners, how civil space works, what kind of features make your product unique in this space?
Tim: (09:03)
Sure. In terms of how the tool technically works, I guess, from a high level, it's an integrated set of community engagement tools. That's what makes it the platform and the idea is to draw the community into a collaborative relationship on key government projects. But technically how does that work? So I guess it starts with a project and projects from our perspective are just like topics that the community understands that they want to connect with, engage with, learn about influence the outcome on. And what we do is systematically, we create these mini hubs around projects. And so within a project hub, you'd have all the information that someone might need to kind of get up to speed and understand what's going on, whether that's videos or infographics or documents or process flows or ways to get involved or blog posts or social media links, sponsor messages, all that kind of stuff. And then what we do is we make it so that our clients are able to build these custom engagement experiences out of a series of tools that they can walk their different community participants through. And then we wire those into the project hub so it's really clear for people to see not only all the information about what's going on, but really how they can get involved with that. And so those custom experiences that they can create can involve idea boards or conversation threads or budgeting exercises, or mapping exercises or ranking exercises or good old fashion, quantitative and qualitative survey questions. I think one of the keys though, is that instead of those being separate engagements or tools, they can be mixed and matched and combined together to suit the need of whatever the engagement happens to be at the time.
Tim: (10:46)
So if you want to drop in a budget question and a video and a ranking question and a conversation thread together, because that suits the different type of information on this particular project or engagement, then no problem. That's what we designed it to do. And then the second part of your question was what makes us different. And so I think one of the key differentiators that we have in this space is our focus on accessibility and simplicity. So we want to make our platform work for all different community members, not just those who would be comfortable showing up and making their voice heard at an in-person town hall or meeting. And so for us, just having a devotion to having our administrators, like our clients who are setting up engagements have to have no technical knowledge to be able to set things up. And it just being really intuitive to piece things together to create these experiences.
Tim: (11:38)
That's really key, but also just thinking about even the fact that most of our participants are on mobile devices. The last I checked, it was 66% of all Civil Space participants are using mobile devices. So the experience that they have when they get emailed a participation link, or they see it on social media or whatever it is that they come across it on, it needs to be really, really simple because on that limited device, with that limited space, they need to be able to take in the information, they need, answer the questions and know kind of how to move from one step to the next, without it being confusing or else people are just going to abandon. And so just that general sense of accessibility and simplicity is something that I'd say that sets us apart.
Lindsay: (12:22)
Each of your organizations, Jessica and Deb is leveraging civil space in a different way, obviously. What would you say has been the most important or impactful feature or selling point for your organization? Jessica, we'll start with you again.
Jessica: (12:36)
Thanks. Yeah.Some of the things that have already been mentioned, a consistent platform for people to engage in, you know, one of the things I've been working hard to do is to ensure that we are doing things more consistently across departments. Actually as we were piloting this, we found out that our parks department had just sent out a survey using kind of an old fashioned survey tool. And we were like, ah, that would have been the perfect project to bring in as our second project. So having something more consistent so that people know that they can, you know, weigh in on a project, no matter what department it is, um, is a really key feature. And then just the easy user interface. Obviously our website is really dense. So there's lots of aspects of our website. People don't know exactly how to find information. Um, and the project info, especially for a long planning or zoning process can be really dense. So having a way to quickly synthesize a project, show the points in which a community member can get involved and share their feedback. Uh, for me is really key because we're really trying to reach those people who don't have the time to come sit through a long meeting. I think this will definitely increase the amount of people that we're getting feedback from.
Lindsay: (13:48)
Great. There's different silos in a government of even the size of Portland. Um, and you realize that other people are trying to do the same thing, and they just aren't aware of a tool that another department is really leveraging and it's working out for. So the flexibility of a tool like civil space that it can grow beyond just this pilot project and really be impactful to other areas of the organization is key. Deb, how about you all?
Deb: (14:13)
Yeah. For us, we really, really liked the multi-tenant design of civil space where all schools and service units have their own unique account that they can manage, but that it's all under our single umbrella account. And that's just fantastic. It's easy for us to provide support. It's easy for us to monitor, um, activity for compliance reporting. And Tim touched as well on the ability for storytelling within Civil Space. And that is something that has been really fantastic for the CBE. the ability to share our narrative, share our story through videos, through graphics, through text and intersperse that with survey questions is just really opened up that two-way dialogue in a really nice way.
Lindsay: (15:09)
How did you each discover civil space and why did you decide to go with them versus a competitor?
Jessica: (15:16)
Well, in our case, Civil Space found us, which was kind of cool. It was through our website vendor. We had put out an RFP for, um, citizen engagement tools. And so we had been evaluating several of those as a group and deciding which one to pilot. So through that process, we actually piloted another one. Halfway through that pilot program our civic plus rep reached out to us and mentioned civil space and asked if we wanted to pilot their tool, um, because they knew that we were looking to kind of be in the innovation space and test out new things and our willingness to do that with them. So they came to us, which was great. And it came down to several things we've mentioned before the ease of use, and obviously the ability that it will connect seamlessly with our website.
Deb: (16:04)
After we identified the need for a single system-wide online engagement platform, we put out an RFQ. Um, we actually one of our engagement partners, um, in helping us design the RFQ. And they, um, in fact, put us in touch with civil space. It was pretty clear from our interview with Tim, uh, that Tim and civil space would be more than a vendor or a supplier that they would actually be a partner with us, um, growing and building and refining their product by really listening and responding to our and their other client's feedback. This approach is actually an excellent example of stakeholder engagement in and of itself.
Lindsay: (16:50)
So Jessica, I know the pandemic has had a huge impact on citizen engagement strategies across local governments globally. I want to talk about how your government has responded, and how Civil Space kind of fits into where you're at now and the future for Portland.
Jessica: (17:07)
Yeah, I mean, if anything, the pandemic was, you know, the biggest surprise in terms of, you know, how we were using the product. I wish that we had been fully up and running, um, or were able to carry on past our pilot project. Like many other cities and local governments, our revenue took a big hit and so everything, was put on hold, we had staff furloughs, um, we had staff reductions. So we weren't really able to proceed with any extra funding or any kind of special projects. The downside to that was, this was exactly the kind of tool we could use in a pandemic when everybody is now working virtually, we've gone to zoom for all council meetings and committee meetings. Um, so when we're not able to have in-person community meetings, how are you getting good feedback from your constituents?I mean, obviously with zoom, we're doing public comment periods, and we've actually found, most people say, I'm so glad you're offering this way, because I might not have been able to come down to city hall some night and give my feedback, but I can certainly plug in on zoom and give a couple of minutes and participate that way. So I wish that we had had this tool, um, up and running across all departments, because it would have been that much easier of a way to get feedback from people and keep them informed during this time. So, I mean, I don't think obviously we're not going back in person, uh, too soon. So I think if we can get this up and running, um, it'll be a great way to engage with people as they've come to expect a virtual way to engage with you.
Lindsay: (18:38)
Yeah. I've talked to a lot of folks in local government and really the deciding factor on how resilient you were and continue to be through these challenging times, really hinges on the digital tools that they had in place going into it. And so it's unfortunate. It caught you right at the wrong time, finishing up a pilot and you can't get stakeholder buy-in. But I think moving forward, there's a universal understanding that these tools are necessary for local government in this digital age of engaging with citizens. I want to shift gears a little and talk about the drivers behind a technology like Civil Space. Tim, when we last spoke, there was a sentiment that stood out to me and it was around this universal challenge that local governments face when trying to level the playing field for engagement. In your words, there are people who are curious, but uninformed, scared to speak up, but want to offer an opinion. Can you elaborate on this concept and how Civil Space aims to break down these barriers for local governments and their communities?
Tim: (19:40)
Yes, yes, absolutely. So at the core of things as an organization, we believe that everyone deserves to be well-informed like all community members deserve to know what's going on in their community. And everyone deserves to have their voice heard and their opinion considered. And so from our perspective, not everyone can make it to an in-person meeting, even in non COVID times. Then there's also folks who are going to be intimidated in that type of venue to speak up, they've maybe had their voice not heard or they just know from experience that there's just not equal power to their voice in a venue like that. And so just by being digital, there's a leveling of the playing field, uh, that happens. But beyond that there's aspects of how we designed our platform that go further than that. So in terms of what about people who only have older technology? So whether that's an old browser or even maybe just a mobile device, what if they have a slow internet connection?
TIm: (20:38)
Have we made considerations for visual and physical impairments? Uh, what about support for non English speakers? If you think about it, there's a lot of barriers that can still be put up to make it so that individuals can't really fully participate. And so we really want to knock those out of the way, but then it's the way that we've made our platform engagement builder, flexible that I think really goes to the next step. And I think this has been touched on a little bit before, but if you think about it, it's not just the question types or the exercise types of engagement, types of experiences. It's about how, in addition to gathering feedback from our communities, civil space makes it really flexible to design an experience where we're educating alongside of that information gathering that we believe is really important. So it's a fancy phrase, but the democratization of information, it really does level the playing field. And the way we envision you can do that using civil space that you take that 40 page PDF that you were going to publish and send out that no one's going to get through. And you pull out the important statistics, the important infographics charts, uh, really important quotes or key pieces of texts. Maybe you have videos or photos, the things that really represent what, what you need to communicate.
Tim: (21:58))
And if you drop those in using our design engine on different kind of topically driven pages within an engagement, you now create an experience where each user is able to say, watch a video and then answer two questions related to that topic. It's all grouped together on that page. And then they move on to the next page and each page is accessible and it's completable. It's not overwhelming, but also on each page, you're kind of level setting the amount of information that everyone has. So even though some people might be really, really well-informed now, you don't have anyone who kind of doesn't have any background or knowledge and the information because you've stuck it right there. They don't need to switch apps, which can be terrible on a mobile device. There it's all there in context. And so we really do believe that that contextual content approach and making it really flexible does make sure that you've really shared information equally.
Lindsay: (22:52)
So you’re a full suite solution for engagement, one that caters especially to these complex organizations with a lot of different functions and layers, uh, which is essentially every local government. yYou've talked about, uh, some of your features that you would expect with one of these comprehensive engagement platforms. Do you have any other features you want to mention that you feel give your product a competitive edge?
Tim: (23:15)
Yeah. So when I think of a competitive edge, I think about our two hybrids. So we have two groups of functionality where we've taken a hybrid approach that I think gives a lot of flexibility. So the first is in our collaborative features. So by collaborative features, I mean, things like threaded conversations, comment, threads, uh, idea boards. Within them, but we've taken a hybrid moderation approach. And by that, we mean, we have a whole suite of best-in-class manual tools for you to monitor, accept, reject, reply to, feature, report on contributions that get made kind of collectively into the community. But we also have a layer of AI moderation that sits in front of those. So that way, you know, when you're actually spending time with your family and living a life, because that's what everyone needs to do, there's this kind of guard rail set up to make sure the contributions that people are putting into the system are community friendly. And by that we mean, and the functionality that our AI is trying to provide is discerning between, say a critique of an idea, or a challenge to an approach and an attack on a person or community group. So we're not talking about filtering based on profanity or bad language, or a couple of keywords we're talking about really deciphering the intent of a contribution. And then it's also about the UX of that process and by UX thinking the user experience. So what type of feedback is a user who is getting filtered out receiving. And so from our perspective, we let them know very transparently that, Hey, we've broken down what your contribution is. And it looks like it's not going to meet our community guidelines. If you want, you can submit it to our moderation queue, or you can tweak or change, your contribution right now, and stay in the conversation.
Tim: (25:04)
And by doing that, we really ensure that people aren't feeling censored out, that people are really clearly understanding what they can do to kind of get back and stay in the conversation. And then we're also reducing the moderation loads that our clients end up facing. So that, I guess that's one. And then the second hybrid would be our hybrid multi-lingual approach. And so with civil space we have, uh, 12 supported languages that have been added to the system. And so what we've done as a approach to apply multi-lingual is taking the best of automated AI based translation, and also the ability to do overrides and make custom changes. Because the two biggest complaints that we heard was on the automated side if you just throw something in like a Google translate, which at the end, you know, it's really fast and easy from an administrative perspective, but there's going to be mistakes. But on the other side, if I want to say support eight languages with my engagement and it's seven pages, there's a whole lot of translation work to be done if it's all manual. So our hybrid approach is to take the best of both worlds, click one button. It applies the translations across the whole engagement across all the languages. And then you get to go in kind of in a second pass and just make the tweaks or changes that you need. So hopefully a whole bunch faster, and the ability to be accurate as well.
Lindsay: (26:24)
And Jessica and Deb, to summarize what would you say is the number one takeaway you'd like another local government or organization to keep in mind when looking at vendors for community engagement?
Jessica: (26:36)
Yeah, for me, I would say that it's worth it to add another tool. It might seem like another thing that you have to get up and running or add to all the things that you're doing, but to Tim's point earlier about, you know, the PDF that nobody's going to read. You're spending already all that staff time and compiling that and putting all that hard work into it. And if you want to get it over the edge, you know, when we get to that point, the goal is to have something that's approved and then goes into implementation. And if you're getting to the finish line and you hear the same people say, I wasn't aware of this, right. Or you're only hearing from the same couple of critics, you know, all that work is for nothing, right? So if you can add this tool and get additional feedback from your residents and bring them along in the process and help inform them about the good work that it's going to do and what it will mean to their community, you're automatically helping yourself by the work that you're doing. And you're giving your government, the data so that when they make a decision, they know that they've heard from enough people in their community.
Lindsay: (27:44)
I love that point that it brings meaning to the work that you're doing. I hadn't heard that before, but I definitely agree. And Deb, how about you all?
Deb: (27:53)
I think Jessica is absolutely right. It is worth it to have an online engagement platform for organizations that are serious about engaging their stakeholders. When looking at the various vendors and there's many out there that offer a wide variety. I think, uh, one of the most important things to look at is, um, is the vendor as serious about stakeholder engagement as they are the tech and the tools. You can have lots of bells and whistles, but if they're not grounded on the foundations of stakeholder engagement, they might not hit the mark as well as a tool that's grounded in the principles of stakeholder engagement itself.
Lindsay: (28:44)
And Tim, you all at civil space have made it your mission to help streamline this process for local governments and organizations looking to have more meaningful and inclusive dialogue with their communities. What's some advice you'd share specifically with a local government looking for a citizen engagement solution?
Tim: (29:02)
Yeah. So I think it the pandemic has shown us, okay. The pandemic has shown us a whole bunch of things, but one of the things that pandemic has shown us is that there's new ways that we need to be gathering information. I think you touched on that earlier, Lindsay, and everything isn't just going to go back to the way it was later. There's going to be that demand for multiple different avenues to engage synchronous and asynchronous ways to connect. And, and we think that as government organizations, you're probably on a process now of figuring out what do we want to be like in the future? What do we want to be like after the pandemic is over in, in quotes, what is our kind of long-term strategy for how we want to engage citizens? And so what I would say is it's important to decide on what that approach or strategy, what that want or need, uh, is what you want things to really look like later, and then make sure you're choosing a product that is going to meet that needs that kind of your ideal future state. And so from our perspective, when we look at things like where you want to iterate and evolve as an organization doing community engagement, you would think about, okay, there's steps along the journey. So maybe you want to start by just sharing more information in a more transparent and easy to consume manner. And then maybe the next step is you want to have more advanced consultations than then maybe the surveys are already running. You want to have more contextual content that we talked about. You want to introduce more mapping or budgeting or constraint based exercises. Maybe you want to add video or live streams, whatever it is into that mix. And then maybe after building those muscles, you want to get into more collaborative scenarios where you're actually working with your citizen base or your community base on solving challenges together. And from my perspective, the key is that at each step, along the way, you're being upfront to your community about the agency you're now providing within each engagement and that you're getting better and better at your follow through on that promise.
Tim: (31:02)
So I would just say think about a tool that's going to provide you those stepping stones to get to where you want to get as an organization. And then the other thing I'd mentioned is, so that's what the tool already, the first answer was to go with the tool already has that meets your needs as you want to get to the future. But I also want to understand where is the company or platform going and are you kind of in alignment with that? So for example, Civil Space, we're investing heavily in adding more tools that are going to make engagements more equitable and more inclusive. And so whether that's collecting demographic data and comparing it to your population distribution, so you can see which groups are being represented and being able to action and mitigate that or tools to automate collection of feedback from voices that are hard to reach or disadvantaged or, uh, offline, not using technology or even tools to make showing that you're accountable to what you're hearing from all these different voices, automated reporting back to the community. Those are the things that we're investing in, So when you're thinking about where you're going, does the tool meet the need now and where, in terms of what the tool is going to be providing you in the future, is that kind of in alignment with the direction that you want to head?
Lindsay: (32:13)
Thank you each again for being here and sharing your important work with the wider community of local governments, looking for these tools to engage more and with their communities. Keep up the exciting work in Portland, Maine, we're excited that you all are going to be reengaged with civil space and excited to track your progress there and in Calgary, thanks Deb for being here and best of luck to you, Tim, on behalf of civil space.
Tim: (32:35)
Thank you.
Jessica: (32:36)
Thanks Lindsay.
Deb: (32:36)
Thank you.
Lindsay: (32:47)
If you're looking to have more meaningful dialogues with your community and need a flexible product suite that can be leveraged to engage both internal and external stakeholders too. We'd encourage you to check out civil space. The shift to more data-driven decision-making is necessary for building a future city that's inclusive, resilient, and is serving the unique needs of their community. And we encourage you to establish a strong partner to help you get there. Stay tuned in the following weeks. As we continue this series on leading engagement tools to discover what may be best for you and your community. I'm Lindsay Pica-Alfano and this podcast was produced by Govlaunch, the Wiki for local government innovation. You can subscribe to hear more stories like this, wherever you get your podcasts. If you're a local government innovator, we hope you'll help us on our mission to build the largest free resource for local governments globally. You can join to search and contribute to the wiki at govlaunch.com. Thanks for tuning in. We hope to see you next time on the Govlaunch podcast.